Alone a very warm welcome indeed to quadriga where the focus this week is on spain which is facing its greatest political crisis in decades separatists in the catalonia region in the northeast of the country have stepped up their push for independence from madrid but the Central Government has firmly rejected the separatist drive and a large number of cats a mans have themselves also made it clear that they want to remain part of spain in a Key Development ahead of the council on government has suspended a declaration of independence saying there is still time to. Sew a question on quadriga this week barcelona against madrid spain a break up and to discuss that question im joined here in the studio by Gabriella Gonzales soria from d. W. Spanish to. S. Q says council only a short stay a part of spain but the rigid approach adopted by Prime Minister oha is only strengthening the council and Independence Movement also with us is motor laming from the berlin daily target spiegel he too argues that council odia must remain part of spain but only if negotiations lead to a very far reaching autonomy and a woman also to marry can pretzel his bowling ball but says she feels like a counselor and is indeed the head of the delegation of the council and government here in germany she believes that the situation in catalonia and spain requires international mediation. For Mary Catherine so this point in time the only thing we really know for certain about whats happening in spain is that the the bit a standoff between madrid and barcelona continues what can you tell us about how determined the separatists in catalonia remain to push for full independence from spain where we have to look at the recent seven years where the Independence Movement got stronger and stronger and we had a million protesters every year in favor of independence and we had been finally. Demonstration in favor of the remaining last sunday which was about fifty thousand participants so but in fact we need. A reasonable number so thats what they give me a level remembers to give me an answer to the question all the separate is still determined to push for full no doubt about it whatsoever no doubt about it ok just to confirm that before we continue before we bring in the other two guests lets have a look at what scholars spurge have all had to say earlier this week. You know maybe just one on me that the government and i propose that parliament suspend the implementation of the declaration of independence so that in the coming weeks we can begin a dialogue you know some of us. Without dialogue it will be impossible to achieve a solution. We ask not only for a deescalation of tensions but also a clear commitment and the will to make progress on the demands of the people of catalonia based on the results of the october first referendum you dont want to. Marry compress back to you we what we have seen is that colors put jimoh and the council on leaders have signed this declaration of independence its going to be enacted sometime in the near future when precisely well as scholars but human said there is space for negotiations and we are waiting for a clear sign up from madrid that they are going to drink doesnt want to go she ations madrid doesnt want to talk. I think we are talking about a time not about a month or something we should wait for clear sign you know if it doesnt the right but i could arrive because the International Pressure on the matter it just going to bring about a living in from the berlin target speak. A lot of people are saying spain is teetering on the brink its very tense clearly lots of uncertainty if spain is teetering on the brink the brink of walked off that is a very good question i mean the brink of more tensions. Because i mean the first speech cut alone. Was. Intentional ambiguity. Lets go to your ability yes lets lets lets go to war but that the weapons stay on the ground so so its led to the fact that i didnt know what to make of it so he asked for more clear message please give me a more clear message i would suspect they wont give in because thats what he wanted and asked for so the whole tension escalating dynamic is still going on with no clear end in sight why didnt he declare independence there and then its almost seemed like and theres no more room for leverage i mean he he wanted to bring the whole into the into the position to declare themselves if there is more room for negotiations or not if you would have to clear independence i would suspect that the tanks were rolled. What do you say a lot of spanish journalists in recent weeks have been talking about two trains about to collide with each other has the collision taken place or is it still going to happen not yet but were very very close. I think theyre both moving a little bit but really tiny tiny tiny theyre both under big pressure. Inside of spain with their own people like the nationalist the separatists were very disappointed also with which to my surely and theres also the pressure on the high by his own party base and there is the International Pressure we dont know much but we know that there are people in the European Community pressuring on both sides that they should move and i hope really that they take a short anecdote because theres a cartoon saying the famous phrase theres a light at the end of the tunnel and the answers thats the train. Why do you think mr put him on did at the last moment pull back you almost seemed it was his moment of destiny and he suddenly pulled the handbrake what was the reason for that really because he believes in twenty he could. Because i suppose that the pressure got too much i mean the. In some. The industry leading maybe and some banks moving and switching to other cities. Pressure from outside the feeling that if you really pull this cart he doesnt have any cart any more i mean the next step would be the Police Coming up and locking him up a lot of people on the extreme base side of the hallway who are like screaming lock him up lock him up sounds like like a lock her up like in the us not lock him up when you mention Prime Minister or you have talked to written about in the last week or so about the total failure of spains Political Class if there if mistakes have been made who has made the biggest mistakes. The separatists or the centrists oh no this is no place this us i mean what is happening in barcelona sorry to say its illegal. Is right and that on the other hand. Like hiding behind the constitution the whole time is not good policy thats also what i wrote is not a good policy he is lacking off empathy totally really i mean he was able to talk to the catalans doing years and he should have since two thousand and seven years to talk with them he didnt do this and now this escalated and came to this point. You know horrible. Monique operates a lot of commentators have have questioned the legitimacy of the independence drive even in terms of International Law how do you explain your case for the gita mysie for separatism you know its completely legit event because we have this forward push from the grassroots so people are pushing forward its not the government media say that a lot but its not true so its not the government thats leaving the Independence Movement of people pushing from from there are people pushing in the other direction to their accounts allowance push to get numbers or action to yes but thats why you wanted to have the referendum which was in our terms legal because we believe and that there is space for referendum in the constitution but the way that moderate government is interpreting the constitution is always against the cut of the interests of but we see a clear gap for that referendum. So the referendum was the peaceful and democratic way to check back and say ok we have each year every year we have this big huge manifestations in the street these demonstrators ration how can we how can we check whether this is read or not is that it just they were read aloud or are they my geraghty so the democratic way was to to hold a referendum and to see how many voters are for no or for yes i think the most important question is on what level of legality are we discussing the problem if you are discussing it on the National Level i think most lawyers agree that that is separation would be against the constitution of spain even though there might be some other but big thats always the case with lawyers but most i think if we had it is against the constitution of spain if we talk about International Law the laws differ the International Law itself. Selfdetermination of a single group this is a value that is kept by nation borders is a valued. Skip are there is no clear winner and selfdetermination of a Certain Group of people who is feel as though they are under the yoke of a colonial power yup it which is not the case in colonial power because spain is a Democratic State we could have made this argument in the balkans for example of war talk about croatia kosovo Bosnia Herzegovina all these there was your was law of yes a dictator colonial power if you want is called all the acts of the union states this is not the case with spain because its a Democratic State that should be solved the problem undemocratic meets you know when the referendum is theres nothing more democratic than a referendum in may and then forty two percent participated and that is very very pertinent and you need a certain horse fair to say people didnt participate when you put bullets on and put police force in front of the boat polling station so. I think if you ask the cattlemens they dont really feel that theres a fair play within spain and thats what its all about so the legitimacy is rooting and that sends is dying to get in if. It looks like eighty percent of the catalans would like to have a league of referendum yeah thats totally ok and i also think that this should be somehow acknowledged by madrid this means right now at this moment the constitution doesnt give this possibility unfortunately unfortunately and it should be changed and it looks like yesterday and i hope i really hope it looks like yesterday and i hope finally said Something Like yeah well we will have to look at the constitution. And maybe now something and i hope that this starts a process of looking to the constitution seeing what is good what is that and what should be changed saying still has a big problem in the relationship between the center and the pair of facts. They clarify exactly still has a big unresolved problem and they have to deal with it now but you have the the right of people for for selfdetermination but you have the right for people to stay in as a nation state with secure borders as well and stability so why not have a referendum on spain level the outcome of become politically different completed of but they are claiming their own rights to live in a country with secure borders with no exclusive right rises for single people to depart from it ok. So lets move on from the question of constitutional legitimacy to the question of the economy catalonia is the wealthiest region in spain but there are signs of that affluence could be put at risk by council on autonomy banks and other businesses are already planning to move their headquarters to other parts of spain as we see now. The uncertainty has prompted a number of businesses to think about whether they want to stay in catalonia several large banks have already announced that theyre leaving businesses do not like uncertainty. The little case here. Business owners dont know whether catalonia is going to stay in spain so theyre reassessing their future. Will always choose the safest option he was came over to see him but i see what the end of the Prime Minister mario know ron paul has made it easier for businesses to change the location of their headquarters all this will complicate catalonia his move toward independence will it force the separatists to soften their demands. Thats the question Mary Catherine says the exodus of banks and business is going to force the catalonians to think twice about their drive for independence these are political weapons as well because there is this as we heard the decree of the state to make it easier for businesses to put their headquarters another place but the dying is that the dying is that i mean to do it you know banks have a well banks have as they did others are talking about it they didnt do it so what we are looking at is they the big numbers in the last years are very favorable towards good onya we have. Big Investment International investments growing also growing and twenty seventeen and and we have this Independence Movement from twenty ten so we dont really see that the Independence Movement is affecting the International Investment at onya. What is of course clear is that the private and private businessmen are free to move their business where they where they won we think that barcelona is a very attractive place to be and i think there would not we will we are not going to see bigger movements in that sense do you buy. Yes. I dont i am not so optimistic i think like maybe theres a similar situation like during the breaks just before the backside i mean everything yeah everything was going to be great and final whatever and now i have wakes up and a lot of problems and maybe its not everything fine i mean i get a lot i will not be a member of the you like after two or three days like this on a problem they will take us come on theres no problem wheres a currency. These problems though a lot of problems are not resolved i mean and people who plans for Independence Day usually or separation like from you they tend to tell the people hey dont worry everything will be fine and much better and then you get into sedation it is even worse you know what im talking about statistics thats why because its not a feeling or an impression but it numbers never forgive me i mean when i was sort of reading up on what the latest developments in council on air in spain i do i read. Dozens of companies of have moved part of their operations over the whole operations away from catalonia in the last year or so i read one figure more than a more than hundred companies have exited. Yeah but if you compare it to other regions in an autonomous regions being its more or less the same thing its not only cut and onya i think Good Business is most afraid of is security and if the future of the political and legal structure of the future of catalonia is in doubt thats what business hates so what they are fleeing is insecurity and start a start as they have right now the insecurity is this due to the fact that from the perspective of the European Union it would not be a very well come. To separation of it because in all nation states and europe you have well two regions which pay more and you have poor regions with the get subsidized by other people so if the tendency that well two regions try to separate themselves from other parts of the country continues that would be very much against everything European Union is based on yes but catalonia right now is paying more to there you can union than it gets from it and everybody is fine is that everybody wants to be in the e. U. Because everybody understands that its a good thing to do so and the other hand its very surprising that the u. S. Has no look at the at the citizens because they cut their loans are convinced european citizens and. What i fear more about is that it could be yours heck up to get your a skepticism been growing in the in the future when we see because i dont use attitudes from the because we saw frightening things in the first of all learned in the us a very very high would you say. Well it wasnt days alan awards asylum in front of us its been very quiet generally speaking on this story i wonder what did you expect at the you is an alliance of nations that obviously they they are there to secure the integrity they protect the taggerty of the members. The International Law actually is done as all this by International States and that want to prevent new the. Breakup of the break yeah exactly the new states forming. Nobody has an interest in that i mean agree its not always fair surely it is surely not always fair. Because most states were drawn like on maps like this anywhere landed on and and past centuries i mean you know we had wars on it and yeah its not fair surely but nobody has an interest and this is a fight what to do ok well we want to talk about the regions of spain lets spain has seventeen regions were very very in degrees of oak ptolemy if one goes perhaps others will want to follow like for instance the Basque Country which is still scarred by a long and bloody struggle for independence from madrid. Will catalonia remain peaceful. People in Northern Spain are keeping a close eye on the situation but only a minority in the boss community are demanding independence. Whatever happens in catalonia itll be good for us were headed in the same direction weve got to do something. If it doesnt. In any case basques do not want to return to the violence that tore the region apart in the late one nine hundred seventy s. Hope it could happen here like it did in catalonia but it could also be worse more radical like it used to be i just dont know. Im not worried just the opposite in fact people just want to stand up for themselves and win their freedom. In. Catalonia could set an example for similar regions will they send a message to other independents movements in europe. Before we go to europe so lets stay in spain because you were talking about the the architecture of the spanish state how fragile is that architecture the constitution of Seventy Eight is just so its not ready yet its has to be reformed clearly we have seventeen regions yes and at the very beginning only a few of them were supposed to get. State status. Then very quickly it came out everyone wanted to have one like every reason wanted to have an autonomous status this was called in spain i think. This was tough for everyone like the way to come. And the thought of them is the team to these autonomous regions one small coffee each time the merry go round thats right and the problem is that every of every status has to be negotiated with madrid differently so no one got a different cup of coffee. A big the other one got a little wanted more theres always more. Oh more each time more autonomy each time more privileges each time sure this too when the catalans came then in two thousand and five more or less when they wanted a new one one they had reason to ask for it obviously spain had was a member of the European Community so there were things to be discussed. Like what is the role of madrid barcelona who gets what right and everything is a totally ok that you have to negotiate again but the system of everyone has to negotiate single is not very good and the basque for example the process. And the problems of never are they have special rights that the couple has asked for so like ok they they can they go to do we want to tax budget riots we want this to so you have to talk about it because if you have some people have some rights and the others not obviously the other one will ask and say like hey thats not fair so moderate has to worry about it always depends on the circumstances and the from the perspective of the youre in union its not separation as such which is a bad thing but the circumstances i mean for example we had the czechs and slovaks they were splitting but in total agreement on that. We had a former. Yugoslavia dictatorship which kept all these little states where we know croatia Bosnia Herzegovina even kosovo under it and didnt give them a certain kind of autonomy but with spain its quite different because for example catalonia has a huge degree of autonomy which is not unprecedented in the whole world but its very very large right now but. You know the point you said about. The other the president says it this is what kind of tone you wanted to to agree on a point lets say as at least as much the smallest and point like lets do a referendum and see how many are. Favor of how many are against the independents and but theres no way to convince moderate to sit on the table and negotiate and thats the problem and thats not only in this moment but also when we were negotiating the stages of autonomy when every scene began that say because of this. Non negotiate acting on the attitude of madrid because we did a lot of proposals but as madrid always says this is forbidden this doesnt fit into the into the constitution which is very questionable and not a lot of times but there wasnt and there on the other hand there was no political offer for the catalans the catalans lost completely their perspective with in spain. Yes but from from the technical questions were talking about separation but what we really want is more autonomy has become its own dynamic were talking about separation and we want separation so this is though we were at least a huge part of the catalonian stance this is the problem with look at spain is still a centralistic state yes yeah as a centralistic state its quite decentralized in a way but its far away from being a father at state like germany like for example the representation of the of the problem in the senate the senate is there its exists but you cant compare that the german bund has gone on not at all not at all so as centralistic said its decentralized with all this autonomous rights but very on even and this has to be cleaned up and always depends if i may add to your point and always depends to your good relations to madrid whether you get more rights are not you and i let it happen then cut alone you know claimed certain rights within the statute of autonomy which made you clarity and you can just take you should know but external under a hedge and these rights so its like really question of. Where is the line of in constitutional right here not yes ok weve got one minutes ago i want to quote counsel from each of you is spain in the foreseeable future going to break up yes or no i dont think so because i think there still is room for negotiations below the level of separation im put on i hope the best negotiations. Government i hope theyre not going to see a sions and we all we are all still probably be proud of all the diverse countries and the inspector ok thanks very much for all three of you for being in today on quadriga will be talking about fame the great against barcelona i hope we can do plenty of food for for come back next week. They promote health but seven b. C. Multinational companies conquering new markets bringing food to poor countries. To be staying to school. But. The business of politics. History books are brought to life. Maybe the stories that get a rewrite. The story of the. Russian revolution. 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