Decades ago but the recent National Election here has put the far right alternative for Germany Party in the bundestag for the very first time and triggered talk of a return to those old east west divisions meanwhile europe once united by the tearing down of the iron curtain is again putting up walls and fences a question on quadriga this week after the election divided germany divided europe and to discuss that question im joined here in the studio by Wojciech Shimon ski who is with the polish service of the w. He believes it is a mixture of Socio Economic and cultural factors that pushes people towards far right populist parties both in eastern germany and in Eastern Europe also with us is judy dempsey senior fellow with the Contiki Europe think tank also a blogger and all third judy says there are all kinds of divisions through europe. And theyre becoming deeper and more complex but compared to spain britain and poland germany still seems to have still seems to be a even of stability and a warm welcome to turn your rice chief correspondent of the berlin sights on newspaper and your says the west germans should stop looking down on the east germans unity means seeing the world through other peoples eyes and questioning your own value. While i do id like to begin with you and as weve just seen germany has been celebrating unity day this past week and the question is how united is germany disunited is germany. Well i think germany is still in a way. Not really united and. It hasnt really been different in all those years after the reunification its just that all of a sudden it seems to come out like like we see it because there is this party if. All of a sudden you see. Most of the war voters. Come from east germany and most of them are man. Talk about that when you say. It just comes out its suddenly there why is it there now because you know people have the feeling that they like that they can speak out what they maybe have thought for a long time their disappointment their anger about things that happened to them. In all those years after their unification so i guess a lot of people feel that. Belong to that united germany to that germany that is very successful in the world. For a billion wojciech and judy lets just listen to what germanys president from voter steinmeyer had to say at the reunification celebrations earlier this week. It was a mock via doing a great wall across our country is gone. But on september twenty fourth it became clear that there were other wallace less visible without barbed wire and death strips. About even dome on walls that stand in the way of our common progress. I am referring to the walls of alienation disappointment or anger that have become some strong reason can no longer penetrate. To dempsey have the walls of alienation disappointment and anger become so impossible that argument can no longer penetrate those walls you know i think these walls. Talks about they are there but we shouldnt speak to most prominent and these polls have been constructed in peoples minds maybe sometimes in peoples lives as well because the political narrative and the politicians have become kind of stuck to fight and how they deal with politics and. This is all its a nomination is really in some ways from the lack of communication and on the Grassroots Level on the local level on the on the political level with those who feel not so much that theyre left behind that they dont seem to have a stake in the society its very very complex but just demonizing these people is even it is very very dangerous politics must become inclusive not exclusive where were clearly is a very important juncture here you know talking about politics having been stall to fide news talking about change sudden change that is beginning to take place. There was an article in the New York Times the been carrying a piece that caught my eye they said germany germany and the germans has enjoyed a long holiday from history but it looks like the vacation is over what do you say. Smiling. Well of course the forty years of division of germany they will not be forgotten in twenty five years after the fall of the. Of the wall thats history we are talking about i believe here and. Is and it may be too easy to make this a great bow to the history that we. In the thirtys or fortys. Of course theres a development in eastern germany and the fact that he had such a such its such a great result its i. Think we have to talk about and ask why did why did this happen but if there is a. Should somebody say this is the comeback of the nazi germany. To march. You to the hole in the holiday from history this commutation of your times they never had a holiday from History History has been haunting the germans since the end of the second war and its been there. Right through to the present day what has changed is the is the the to boost that to boost now broken down and so its not that history is being the visit it is that people of the f. T. Particularly are now actually questioning some of the symbols of that history and thats the dangerous aspect of that in some ways theres also a feeling that in some it depends on who you talked in the f. T. If you want to be released from this history but to be released from your past and your countrys history is really not a solution and how to deal with the problems now thats some some germans do feel and you just tell us a little bit more about that the you know you have to go to eleven percent of the vote in western germany and almost twice that in eastern germany why the difference why to more people in eastern germany vote for the f. T. I think you know that party could have had in another name i guess there is not really a party where the east germans feel like they belong to that they would to now stand up for their interests you know the Left Wing Party to link or. The former as they do social as party here and they you know try to take over voters and. But still there is a little suspicion on the people to think ok this is my party and then theres a huge. Not huge anymore but you know socialist party and a Christian Democratic Party theyre both really you know they used to be really big parties and theyre also a little suspicious because that gets a lot of people are reminded of of the big socialist party in g. R. And and also you know theyre very varied there are many reasons i guess why is if you. Left out by those parties bank of america by shorts in a way they feel those are not the people who. Who prayed for us who understand who we are and what happened to us and and so now there is this new party and this new party just you know all those different people and they just you know speak out about this think and i guess this is what really a lot of people have missed in the last i dont know almost thirty years to speak out you know there were and so many opportunities now too and now all of a sudden in hours there is and they just use that chans interesting comments voice what is the perceptions from the polish side of the border when they look across to germany and the latest developments in the big neighbor to the poles more inclined to be shocked and surprised by this of the if tea party or are they perhaps sympathetic about the rise a lot of force are scared of this of this party when mr goble and the leader of the germans have right to be proud of german soldiers in the in the Second World War thats inacceptable for for people in poland also these russian sympathy that is there in the area of the. Makes poles unhappy but for the National Conservatives who are rule poland right now you have the. Very similar similar thoughts very Similar Program its extremely similar the need to protect your country the need to protect your nation the need to protect christian values in europe the need to close the borders to protect your so youre country from from from from make friends. So its a kind of. Its hard to say for poles how to how to whats their attitude towards towards for those liberal left poles of course its unacceptable the people on the right or National Conservatives they have other attitude of course as i said they cant accept what the system for example about the world war Second World War but other things are acceptable. And judy would what do you say say about the threat that some people believe that the di poses to german democracy to the new the incoming speaker of the German Parliament grandchildren of the former finance minister he said this week anybody attempting to wreck the countrys der democratic system will fail symptom must be symptomatic that is even talking about yeah and its actually very good news of wolfgang surely is going to be president of the of the bundestag the parliament because this politician of outgoing finance minister has never minced his words and hes going to take a very hard line on the rhetoric and the language coming from the f. T. As for democracy i i think the. The democratic structures and the outlook and institutions are actually Strong Enough and durable enough to deal with the f. T. Just the first thing secondly yes theres been an extraordinary fragmentation of german politics over the last fifteen years perhaps but. Interestingly when small parties or radical parties are far left far right do get even into the local regional parliaments they make a mess of it and they fall apart or they cant have a policy and thats very interesting that the f. T. Really doesnt support anything its very much against something but now this is in the buddhist tag lets see what they what they want ok well one word used to describe used a lot to describe the mood among people at least in germany is resentment and that resentment is often targeted as an years already mentioned just one person lets find out who. He is appalled he had and i think we should have given her a good clobbering kleenex and thats not the first time youve done nothing for germans all she cares about is foreigners in fizzy. I dont think she did enough. I think she should have done more and not just for the refugees we dont have anything against them it. Should have done more for our School Children and older people. But. Many expected more from someone who grew up in east germany. And so she was educated at state expense when she done for those of us who live in the east winds. Torture do you understand why so many people in eastern germany have so much resentment about a woman who is after all one of their own from eastern germany. I guess they are somehow disappointed with policy of america and indeed shes or supposed to be one of them but do they still see her. As one of as one of them and go america may be become a very western politicians. As we see. In the east what parties have been have had good results in former germany its a of d. And the left is the villain to the left party and go america is the leader of the western. She doesnt necessarily have to represent these. People in the in the east so i think they are they are simply disappointed and her decision to. Have this politics of open doors for the migrants it triggered a belief this sentiment towards uncle america. Why cant these germans accept Angela Merkel as one of their own as a champion as a role model because i guess a lot of people do. And a lot of people are proud that an east german woman made is that far but theyre also sees a huge gap like you know. France from other countries like from new york so theyre all dont they have no understanding for why people vote and vote for her and so and that proud you dont try find anymore or maybe it has never been there and i think one of the reasons is that shes an east german and you cant see that anymore you know and i guess in order to. To birth that system in a party system she had to become watch she is you know like more maybe west german or german politician and. You know i. Wait for that moment when she maybe is not transfer any more and she would talk about the difficulties you know. Her own identity and right now maybe she can she can do that and its interesting you say that about that maybe she didnt represent them or whatever but i mean what does it mean now to be that she didnt represent them as an east german i just wonder what is an east german today actually for the younger people the freedom to travel freedom to work or anywhere they like i mean they voted for other parties theres no doubt about that do you want a generation is it just a disappoint her angloamerican this is a disappointment its what you touched on earlier the big block parties i mean that this was a democratic pretty awful in eastern germany and the one party that really did well in the south saxon is ever was that they hung in there the christian democrats so thats thats quite strong down there for very different historical reasons perhaps but it is something theres something that perhaps the social democrats and the christian democrats couldnt couldnt sort of penetrate the east German Society on the one hand and it says something this resentment in east germany how difficult this has bill has been to build a kind of Political Trust strong tradition of Political Parties which i knew that the two big block parties were deemed suspicious but it must be something more but saying im going to merkel isnt like least german i just wonder what in east germany looks like its not something more has something to do with east german men need you have written about the difference between east german men and the german women in terms of their voting patterns many more east german men voting for the alternative for germany than women. To what extent one of your colleagues of the bill in the titan wrote wrote an article saying what is the problem whats got whats up with these german men what is up with these german men i know youve written about this too yeah i guess. I dont know. Three hard to say because sometimes i get angry when i see east german man just walking on the sidewalk towards me and i see how there are and i want to shake them so its really hard to say i spent a lot of time actually recently was an east german man. Because i wrote about him and so i kind of you know god what did you discover what what what what can you tell us about him he was like so angry there was always a to be on the order was you know he would just. Be a now and say look at that you know this is like as it always is and he would just and if you would talk to him and discuss things you know then the anger breaks down and and i guess you know it just took to have someone in your living room you can talk to you can express your worries your anger or whatever you know and also tells you but biography i mean people laugh you know when i read about them they laugh telling their story because they could they never could do that in the last i dont know twenty seven years and theres one that lives and so sometimes im more like a therapist. Therapist then than a journalist you know. There i dont know theres a lot of anger broken biographies to say man i mean there wasnt really. Like emancipation like the woman was and the man was like im actual man also needs germany here its a c. World so why dont you know. Who was the head of the family also as a woman also worked a lot but still you find a lot of. Role understanding in man and so they lost that they lost a lot of things for you coming to the list of lets just i want to introduce another word to the discussion that i dont think is the word yet quite identity identity is very important as we broaden the discussion to the european level lets just listen to what the prime ministers of hungary and poland have to say about their understanding of identity at this point in time. You dont get that we do not want a mixed population such as those you find in the west where different civilizations live side by side. With the characters these civilizations mix the christian element decreases hand it loses its role in delia life at the financials that. Says under suspicion on the matter of illegal immigration with the bright one. We have taken no to the verdict of european courts still our primary goal must be to protect our citizens. Were checked tell us a little bit more about the european connection and identity and how this brings all of this together in east germany Eastern Europe well the similarities that i see is as well as in germany there are not so many immigrants or muslim immigrants there are no almost no muslim immigrants in poland or in hungary but in those regions people oppose immigrants so heart and soul loudly thats the question why. Poles dont see immigrants they dont have a muslim immigrant on the street but they are so afraid of them and i think this is the question why is there so much fear why would people be so so anxious and i guess this has something to do with the social social and social Economic Development of people there are groups which will be anxious easily then other if your social development is better. If you dont fear the future if you dont feud the changing world you will not be used by populistic parties but there are so many people and i believe that this similarity in eastern germany and in the new europe that simply doesnt have this fundament this social ground that lets them look. Into the future peacefully to the experts or Eastern Europe you agree is it about how people are rooted or not. Its very complicated and because during the communist era there was no kind of immigration or refugee policy or asylum policy and after the Second World War poland and hungary became largely and mando ethnic societies the jews had been killed the germans had been deported back to center joined the west germany it became a very homogenously society this is the first point and so the image of the muslim as portrayed by the governments in budapest in warsaw they have been demonized theyre terrorists and thats that that becomes the daily discourse. So this is the first thing and i said secondly i think its very important the question of identity because it feeds into the question of sovereignty what we have seen happening in hungary in poland and the some other countries in the e. U. Not even east and Central European countries is that cloying is the to be sovereign even though remember remembers of the e. U. We had to cede some of our sovereignty and there is this push back against the European Union so the idea of identity politics ethnic politics and values its all this is this is our country and the e. U. Dont dictate so all these things are coming together would have to say about all of these things are new. I think you didnt vote for the f. T. And now sometimes i think like youve the real homeless coming back talking to him and hes just. I dont know he he he was years like. He has a really good education he went to two different colleges and yes germany and then when the wall came down there were also highlight in this life he was married to a woman who. Who owned an Apartment Building in east berlin and so and he was you know the head of the reconstruction and for like a year he was like a owner of a building and these german germany and he thought ok this is this is my time now everything will be good of course it was because things are not as easy so and his life kind of broke down and i guess you still you know working on that and looking at the refugees you know when we talked from times they would come up or remark like you know but look what they get look what you know how much help they get and so hes jealous yeah he is that word resentment again brazen. Jealousy you know well its interesting you bring up this because if you look at west german west berlin women particularly seeing the fiftys or sixtys and talk about. Shop assistants cashiers they got a ton of money and in conversation with them sometimes theyre very tolerant towards the refugees it helps them in the supermarket is everything but sometimes they say well theyre getting more than me and you have to be very careful with the combining those that are on a much lower level of income and supporting them as well and this goes back to the inclusive inclusive ety of politics and sometimes it seems that these women who wont take on employment money want to want to say is well. A final word how divided is europe how divided is germany i dont really like this idea of eastern and Western Division because its not only eastern germany or poland or hungary which is voting for a book a list of parties we have this problem in austria we have this in france weve got this in Great Britain weve got this in in holland in the United States of america. Im not sure if we really have a curtain there. Between west and east closing thoughts judy. Europe has always been divided North South East west and. This is a new kind of division. For democracy to summarize one sentence i think we should talk about more about the differences than we used to. And so start a discussion not just have a always on the on october twenty third i have to make it a half divided germany divided europe i open giving you plenty of food for thought come back to court drinking next week fine but chose. A wrong. Ha unplugged. The first in the history of this legendary norwegian band. Find out why are going acoustic and one else their fans can expect from. Your. Thirty minute spot d. W. Its all about the moments that lie before. Its all about the stories inside. Its all about George Chance to discover the world from different perspectives. Join us and inspired by distinctive instagram others at g. W. Stories new topics each week on instagram. D w true diversity. Where the world of science is at home in many languages. 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