say if i'm an investigator i'm really going to do a lot of investigating to see what more is there. and i think that's what we're hearing from the news stories. >> hey, frank, i'm sitting home listening to all this, or perhaps even sitting in this chair listening to all this, wondering how we should think about all these talks about pardons. all these mentions of pardons. it seems to be in the background of so many of the tableaus. talk about that and how it might blow back on rudy giuliani. >> yeah. so let's level set for a moment here and set aside criminal allegations of obstruction, witness tampering that are related to dangling pardons. let's talk about ethics and integrity just for a second. this whole notion of the president's criminal defense attorneys, not white house counsel, not ethics and policy lawyers, but his defense team even entertaining discussion of a pardon, entering into so-called back channel communications, wholly inappropriate and puts us much