tease out really who's leading who. but it gets to what i think was one of the key takeaways aside from the fact that it was more of a propaganda operation and that is that fox is afraid of its own audience too now. so could they stop if they wanted to? it doesn't seem that way. >> that's what happened during the shutdown, which is really interesting to me. at a certain point he's trapped in a corner. his approval ratings are going down. it's really bad politically for him and there's no way out. so he cuts his losses. and then it's like you watch the fox machine whir into gear to essentially defend it and sell it to a base that they're both mutually scared. >> yeah, yeah, exactly. and this is why just looking at the cohen hearing the other day, you know, what's so dangerous about those is people can see these events with their own eyes. and in moments like that, the fox news machine has to basically try to convince the audience, don't believe what you are seeing, this is the reality in which we think you shouldn't have it. >> there's sort of a bunch of