there's the potential meeting that manafort may or may not have had with julian assange. again, all according to reporting from "the guardian" and unnamed sources talking to them. and then there is the other news. barbara, when you're making sense of it and you're talking about pardons potentially coming from the white house, how do you make sense of it, where do you go? >> i think there's some -- several layers going on here. number one, the one we know to be true is that manafort has lied and is now not cooperating any longer. and what's odd about that is the first thing a prosecutor ever says to someone who is cooperating is, the worst thing you can do is lie because if you lie, it make it's worse on yourself. not only will you get all of the time you otherwise faced, but now you can also be charged with making false statements. so for a sophisticated guy like paul manafort to make a suggestion against his interest suggests to me there's something