because -- palmoil is in every product that has a sheflf life. do we as consumers need products to have shelf lives of months if not years? i'm not sure that we do. imagine if that demand went d n down, that would really create a change. >> so when you were looking at this, in each issue, whether it's pomoil or cell phones or carpets, the effect on children is different. some of them are health, some of them are human rights abuses. some of them are these kids aren't in school and not getting an education, don't have a future. >> the wages and education -- >> right. is there an overwhelming -- if someone had to finish the sentence with child labor is bad because it -- >> child labor is bad because it ensures that children are trapped in a system -- >> of poverty. >> -- of poverty that enables them to create a better life for themselves. a lot of people when they think about tackling poverty not only in this country and many around the world, the conversation