known about these allegations. this teams to me to be an effort at guilt by association, which is not the way this committee should operate in anyway. with that in mind, i want to give you a chance to answer a few questions about judge kazinski so we're all operating on the same operation effects. first, how long have you known judge kazinski? >> i clerked for him in 1991-1992, so i started the clerkship 27 years ago. >> second, i understand from me, the reports that judge kazinski operated an e-mail list where he would sends inappropriate material. were you on this e-mail list? >> i don't remember anything leak that senator. >> how often would you talk with judge kazinski on the phone in. >> not often, not often, senator. >> how often did you see him in person? >> again, not often. maybe when there was a legal convention or --