happening with michael cohen, strangely, the prosecution, the southern district of new york, did not announce a cooperation deal with him. now a number of lawyers -- and you and i have spoken since then -- have told me that sometimes a cooperation deal emanates from a plea deal. where do you think we are on that? >> it's hard to know. i thought it was real surprising to see cohen plead straight up to this indictment. it looks like he has someplace between four and six years of exposure. hard to know why he would have done that. he could have possibly gotten some cooperation. there's been some speculation that his wife might have had exposure. he might have gone ahead and entered a plea of guilt to spare her. i just don't think we know yet and, of course, prosecutors could decide down the road that cohen does have some value and conclude a cooperation agreement with him at a later time. >> i think the tag line for the trump administration is i don't think we know yet. joyce, always great to see you. thank you at least for helping us get through it. joyce vance is a former u.s.