my view would be an admission of guilt, particularly on an obstruction charge, which is why they don't want obstruction as part of the interview. that part i believe. if there is an interview, they don't want any conversation about obstruction. i think it actually points to something that i think i will disagree with joyce on. it is one thing to say he's a subject, that donald trump is a subject of an investigation. subjects can become targets. the fact they have said he's a subject doesn't mean he can become a target, which is the very reason why they don't want him to testify. i think you're absolutely right. this entire political strategy, not legal strategy, but political strategy has been to convince the trump base that there is nothing they should be concerned about in terms of trump's behavior. here is the question i would ask anyone without regard to political affiliation. if you have nothing to hide, you cooperate. this is not cooperation. >> yeah. and, joyce, to that issue of subject versus target, it is a