theory for the first time that many of us were going after the story wrong, and the airing of the tape was a guiliani method of lessening cohen's value. in fact, in the piece you contributed to in "the times" tonight, i'm looking at this giuliani quote about lanny davis. "he's basically destroying his client as a witness because he really isn't a criminal lawyer, he's playing it like a shill as opposed to a lawyer. his whole theory, you bring it all out, that's great, but now the guy's ruined as a witness. what prosecutor is going to use him?" you see where i'm going, that it's diminishing of cohen's potential value as a flip. >> yeah, and it's interesting because, to phil's point about how michael cohen feels, you know, out in the wilderness, cohen's lawyers actually approached rudy giuliani and said, you know, is the president planning to pardon michael cohen, how is this going to go? and giuliani kind of like, eh,