he absolutely knows that's not true and this was a serious case of obstruction of justice and manafort needed to go in. >> carolyn what, do you make of that? you could make the argument i page from somebody tryinto defend rudy giuliani here, yes, the president has the power to forwarden, anybody at any time for any reason. if his lawyer says by the way, the president has this sort of unbridled power here, cog a case emerge from that. >> we don't need to be reminded he has the sort of unfettered power. that is true it says so in the constitution and there are no limits except you can't pardon. you can't pardon for an impeachment proceeding. we've seen donald trump sort of use the pardon power with reckless abandon. scooter libby dineshdy souza did, for jack johnson. he's trying to normalize the pardoning process even though he does it in a way inconsistent with the procedures that prior