the ultimate question is whether or not he'll be successful in subpoenaing, forcing his testimony. and i think that what you see in this march 5th meeting and in the standoff that my colleague bob costa and i describe is that both sides were kind of plucking around each other, trying to say, hey, we may not have our guy sit down, and the other guy goes, hey, maybe we'll subpoena him then. and ultimately, there's some negatives for both sides, if this happens. if they go to the supreme court, it's going to take bob mueller a long time to get the president's firsthand account of why he took the actions he did. and if they subpoena him, it's going to take a long time for president trump to get the specter of the russia collusion investigation behind him, as he repeatedly claims he would like to do. >> you also report tonight, carol, that the white house approach to this, as sort of a pr matter, i say political