but, look, lawrence, i think what strikes me and hearing that earlier segment and all the speculation in the past 24 hours from anthony scaramucci and other allies of the president over whether or not michael cohen will flip and the peril to donald trump if michael cohen flips. you know, there is a technical phrase in the law for people who are at risk by their lawyers flipping on them, and that technical phrase is criminal. that is the kind of conduct that is at risk if your lawyer flips. and they're just betting on whether or not he's -- we're not having a discussion about whether or not the president is a crook. we're just having a discussion about whether he will be caught by his lawyer turning on him. >> david, jay goldberg who knows michael cohen, knows donald trump, is 100% confident that michael cohen is facing serious jail time, and when he's presented with that, he will start talking about donald trump. >> well, as ron said, what you normally say if you're associated with the president anyway in a situation like this is, we hope that everyone