on immigration. and that has caused political chaos in europe and it's caused some chaos here in the united states as well. not talking about closing the borders, but there is a middle ground that liberal democracies over the past 20 years have refused to take on immigration and this is the result. >> absolutely right, joe. and let's think of it this way. there's an idealistic let's do the right thing, let's take care of the world component to this and that's important, but i think there's a very pragmatic reason that the united states ought to be taking these kind of positions. and if we look back in history it's kind of instructive. if you go back about 100 years ago, world war i is ending. what does is united states do? we reject the league of nations, the predecessor to the united nations. we erect walls called tariff barriers, the holly smoot tariffs. and we withdraw.