former fbi special agent. chuck rosenberg is also an msnbc contributor and former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official. chuck, i'll start with you since you're here in studio. let's talk first about this story related to jared kushner. the fact you now have this story from "the new york times" that some of the businesses that he was dealing with received some type of business boon in the wake of meetings at the white house with jared kushner. how big of a deal is this? as julia says, we don't really know whether bob mueller will look at this. >> i think julia used the phrase pay to play and that's exactly right. let's boil it down to its essen essence. is he using his position in the white house to obtain favorable treatment conditions, loans, for his businesses. is he using his position in the white house to forgo actions that somebody would have taken had they not had a conflict of interest? people always talk about this, kristen, as if it's really complex and nuanced and layered.