he did the same thing in the oval office with the ambassador where he released classified information that he got from the israelis. this is a man who is very cagey. does this thing in a public way where it doesn't look like he's actually helping the russians but the bottom line is, he is. and that's where he's going to go down. >> that point i think is a key one. if you can show the president knowing about what russia is doing via the e-mails even if the papadopoulos information is passed to him,ham saying publicly, russia if you're listening is no longer a joke. he's in public giving a directive as part of the conspiracy plausibly. >> does he sound like he's joking? he claimed it was a joke afterwards. that didn't sound like a joke to me. >> go ahead, paul. >> that's where paul manafort again at some point, chris, paul manafort is pleading guilty. he's 69 years old looking at 40 years. the case against him is really easy to prove. if he's got dirt about the president of the united states,