sometimes that information comes as it did in the manafort and gates case from e-mails, they got search warrants from manafort and gates' e-mails, sometimes it comes from other witnesses, and sometimes it comes from the insiders themselves. i wouldn't necessarily say they're trying to flip manafort. they've decided based on the evidence they've seen that manafort is guilty and they can prove it without a reasonable doubt. >> but they keep adding indictments, and i'm sorry to interrupt, but yesterday we had chuck rosenberg on, who's a man who doesn't have a tendency to overstate things, as you know, and he said, at the end of the day, either sooner or later, depending on if he ends up pleading guilty or if they end up convicting him after a lengthy trial, paul manafort will be a convicted felon. that's going to happen. by the way, sarah sanders is talking right now. we'll go to her when she starts taking questions. don't leave this channel. so paul manafort is someone who will be a convicted felon according to chuck rosenberg. why would he not cooperate? why would he be holding out? is he holding out for a pardon? is that a safe bet? >> well, i can't possibly speculate what's going on in