political consultant. in the last couple of years, particularly right before he started in the trump campaign, he grew increasingly desperate for cash. and so in the latest indictment in virginia, mueller describes a pattern of bank fraud where manafort repeatedly lied to get loans and it was clearly manafort really needed cash badly and he took the job for free so this raises some interesting questions about what he was doing when he was, you know, in apparently desperate financial straits and working for free in the trump campaign. >> some of these indictment documents i don't feel smart enough to read. they're so complex, especially the obligations surrounding manafort's operation. could you make a case that absent donald trump entering his life paul manafort would just be off somewhere running his international business and lobbying, registered or unregistered in washington for various entities? >> i think you can absolutely make that case. and this is something that applies to a number of president trump's associates.