one side's political benefit -- political damage is often done. but this one is being argued over all day about who won the shutdown, who lost the shutdown in terms of the politics. how do you see it? >> i think that's the key. they do not work in any predictable way. i found the argument mist fiezing. we're not going to know who won the shutdown until the next three or four weeks workout. so the thing the democrats feel they got is a credible promise from mitch mcconnell to hold a vote on the immigration bill. and amidst that they will shutdown the government if they don't get that. so now we don't know what immigration bill gets brought to the floor, does it pass. does it get past the house? then does the president sign it. what i don't understand about the pro shutdown arguments than