7:20 is the height of rush hour. i want to bring back jim cavanaugh in charge of the atf. based on what we have heard from the mayor, what do you think? >> it looks like the device lowered on them. it didn't completely detonate. >> say that again, it what? >> in bomb world, we talk about the destination. if a detonation is up cleat inc low order detonation, incomplete detonation of the explosive filler, a high order detonation is a complete detonation of the explosive material. if we had a high order detonation, a complete detonation of explosive material, this guy likely would have had most of the pipe in his stomach. and he wouldn't be talking, and he wouldn't be in the condition they have described. so he survived this blast pretty