fit in and could they learn? >> so in 2010, you're looking at experience. five years of this, two years of that, a particular type of degree. in 2017 and beyond, until this market cools down, you can no longer find candidates as easily that way. so you got to start looking at core skills and looking at behaviors. focus less so on where they worked and how long they did it for. focus more on what they're capable of doing and see if that's going to be a fit for this particular role. >> and maybe the point is -- so let's just say i have a key marketing role i need to fill, and i can't find the perfect person with experience. maybe i could find someone who can learn and get an adviser, which might be easier to find who can help them. >> the question becomes what's more trainable. their experience within an industry or the core skills that make them successful. and the answer is the experience in the industry is much easier to train. so if you find someone who's a good communicator, who works well with a team, who's able to take initiative, who you're able to give work to and they just do it and they don't know anything about the business that you're in, train them on the business.