who -- now an outside figure who has this kind of svengali-like -- that's almost too subtle of an example -- i can't think of someone who has managed to assert and exert this level of influence. and part of it is, in fact, he is a tribal leader. i think one of the things we're seeing in alabama, one of the things we have been seeing the last year, overall with president trump, but particularly in the alabama case, is the true triumph of tribal politics. if he is your guy, if he is your person, the facts don't matter. and bannon, by shifting the attention from the substance of the allegations, to the means by which they were reported, is the architect of that tribal war fair. >> jon meacham, thank you so much for being with us. we always have questions for you, getting them to you is