>> but did it have to be this way? >> it was a branding business, so by definition, he could enrich himself by virtue of more people knowing his brand, if that was possible. >> kind of like licensing. >> it was like licensing. the problem is this. you and i were also together in that first press conference where his lawyer came out and he came out and talked about the fact that even though he doesn't have to do these things, he's putting his stuff into a strange kind of trust that they called a blind trust that there's nothing blind about it, and he was going to do these things because it was the right thing to do, and that was the last time that was spoken of. the idea that it was the right thing to do to separate yourself from your business interests. so for instance, to nick's point, what should have been done is to say, where possible don't spend public moneys at trump businesses. just to ensure that there is no -- there's no optics of conflict. it appears that's not even happening, so there was a -- there were purchases made at trump hotel. there were stays at the trump hotel in vancouver. there are all sorts of options,