catch them in the act, you're not going to catch them. they have no idea if it is russia or china or somebody. it could be somebody sitting in a bed someplace. personally, it could be russia. i don't really think it is. but who knows? i don't know and they don't know. >> do you accept their opinion that he vladimir putin ordered the hack of the dnc, the attempted hack of the rnc? >> i think it was russia. but i think we also get hacked by other countries. and other people. >> you don't mean to tell me the russians tried to meddle in the election. >> that i don't know. if you don't catch a hacker, okay, in the act, it is very hard to say who did the hacking. with that being said, i'll go along with russia. it could have been china. it could have been a lot of different groups. >> what's with the hedging? joining me, a member of the tension committee. jonathan swan of axios.