like this that were attributing i think you know right then you're not anywhere approaching it. i cannot imagine that any court would say that the justification -- >> how do you apply the facially legitimate standard to an executive order like that? >> and you are watching oral arguments in the 9th circuit court of appeals in seattle. extraordinary that they have made this decision to allow cameras so that we can watch this live. you just witnessed a critical moment when judge gould asked a question how is the court to know if this is effectively a muslim ban in the national security justification and asked if the president ever disavowed campaign statements and did call for a muslim ban. joining me now is msnbc's chief