to have these proxy fights like we're seeing the primary for the governor of virginia turning into a clinton/bernie proxy fight. i see no significant policy difference between both candidates. >> let's bring karen in. >> two things. number one, this should not be a proxy fight about hillary and bernie but bernie is also giving speeches -- >> he's an elected official. >> hold on. he's doing it not just in his own state but around the country to continue to push ideas. so my point there is just to suggest that he also -- his being out there and continuing to talk about those ideas, keep those ideas out there. and i think we should be talking about the ideas rather than trying to put them in a bernie/hillary frame. second, josh, i don't know how the hell you can say hillary clinton is unpopular when she won 3 million more votes -- >> by reading the polls. she lost an election to donald trump. >> which is a tragedy, and we messed up and she talked about that. but particularly if you look at the margins, they're very slim.