conspiracies. this is the first time, probably, that that kind of mentality has taken over an actual presidency. >> right, because hoffstatder was focused on conservativism and the movement around barry goldwater which ultimately did not take the white house. >> it did take the republican party. >> right. >> eventually. >> what do you think about his point -- i was rereading this and found it very interesting -- that you can actlly unhook -- in other words, traditional politicians are still held to their pledges, butf it's not about facts and policy, it's -- becomes what he calls a more projected psychological dynamic where the supporters are simply renewed in feeling good about themselves or their status and the wall being built or not might not matter. >> i mean, it's an alternative universe, an alt-universe, you might say, where this is going on. and something like -- take something like the republican denial of climate change and how enormous a conspiracy you would