contrast between, you know, so many democrats and so many liberals who really do feel that the apocalypse is upon us and the world is ending and obama saying everything's going to be okay. i think that's -- but i think there is an element in him too that is still trying to play trump a little bit. trying to keep the line of communication open. >> is it to play trump? is it to play trump? i was going to say trump or is it part of his legacy protection. >> i think it's both. he believes to the extent that he c influence trump to the extent that he can be a voice that is the administration is still open to by not making himself an opponent. he believes that he can continue to influence the country in a way that is beneficial. >> one thing you'll learn in the pence interview later. biden has forged a bond with pence and obama forged a bond with trump. i don't know if it's bs. i don't think it is. >> i think when you reach that