>> certainly the nsa thinks so. this is a conversation we've been having back and forth for 20 years. i think from the tech perspective, these systems either work or they don't. if there's another key to your house somewhere, there's a concern that that key falls into the wrong hands. >> so at the end of the day, what if this dream comes along and they're going to apple, they're going to google, they're going to these folks. chances are many people in the audience who have an encryption app on their phone right now. >> certainly. if you sent an e-mail or made a purchase online you were using encryption. it's not been exotic or a scary tool at all. it is fundamental to the internet at this point. >> so, will there be a point, just as we feel the foment of all this right now, will there be a point when folks stand together and the congress or the president of the united states gets these guys on the phone and says, you got to break it open? >> i wonder where you cross the line. i think part of the troubling thing with a lot of the rhetoric