and led to the rise of al qaeda and to isis. >> joining me now, michelle goldberg. a columnist for slate. what did you think of the first half-hour? >> it seemed they were not all not at their best. maybe bernie sanders because he wasn't talking about the issues in his wheel house and probably came off a little more hawkish than some of his supporters might suspect he is. >> there's a variety that he had supported. >> i don't think he's particularly hawkish by i don't think he's -- he's not a passivist. hillary clinton, this should have -- it seems actually tawdry to say this should have worked to her advantage. but she is on fairly firm ground with her foreign policy experience and he's on the record as differing with the obama administration's syria policy.