decision about whether he or she wants to come to the debates, based on the information that they get back. >> now the rnc had proposed delegate penalties for, say, going rogue on this debate process. is that now null and void? what's going on here? >> i'm not sure it was ever -- it was never put in the rules and would have had to have been put in the rules by now. so i think it became null and void as an idea last august when the deadline for rules change passed. >> so the rnc doesn't have a role anymore? or help me out. do you believe the candidates are going to essentially say, fine, they're going to want to be more involved in the operations of how the debate's being put on, but they're not going to tell the rnc yes or no on who does debates? >> there are three levels. first of all, there's the candidates. they want to debate. then there's the staff. and it's the staff's