>> so we call those charges. and then there's costs. which are really what will be paid. and of course, there is no such thing as a cost. because commercial insurers like etna or united pay one rate. medicare pays a different rate. typically lower. medicaid pays even lower than that. the only people who pay that kind of bill are people paying full price, chinese billionaires or oil sheikhs. really no relationship to reality. the problem is, the guys who run the hospital, they don't know how much of that really costs them in material of effort, activity and supplies. they're just guestimating it. and then they rack up the numbers. they go in and negotiate about the prices. >> you have put your finger on something that drives me insane.