and i think if i was a defense attorney, i'd talk about at a super max, he's never going to see anybody, talk to anybody, not unless you want to. >> jackie what do you think about our ability to sort of i think navigate the nuances of this particular part of it which is really the whole, there was the guilt trial but i think the sentencing phase brings to the fore these moral conundrums around this act. >> we haven't really had a societal debate about the death penalty for a long time and i think it brings that up too. and to your point about seeing things either black or white or shades of gray i think it's a lot easier to see things in black and white and not have to think about, you know, that someone can do something horrible and not be a totally horrible person. i don't envy those jurors. they have a tough decision. >> what jackie just said it occurs to me we have had a lot of debates by the death penalty, they've been procedural logistic, been about innocence,