in which we are essentially picking up the cost to do their work for them on federal public land. that subsidy, the taxpayer pays for, and is transferred into the pockets of the timber companies. >> exactly. exactly. and probably the biggest western subsidy of all is really under the bureau of reclamation which is the water subsidies and the fact that we build these enormous water projects like the central valley project in california. that the whole purpose of the bureau of reclamation in 1902 when it was created was to make the desert bloom. to move people out west which a lot of subsidies are about trying to -- western expansion. hey, we got it. it's done. their people are there. but when you look at water, we've lost billions of dollars providing low-cost water, pennies on the dollar of what that water is worth. and you have issues of then, you know, the drought and it's exacerbated by subsidies because people waste the water. >> this is the point i want to make from an ideological perspective is that i'm not here to say that we shouldn't be subsidizing water in the west or even necessarily that the way