are we slowing down? things are great. it's very easy to have that perspective. you saw that at the end of the civil rights movement, all these white liberals were like, hey, guys, why are we slowing down? what's going on? >> it's interesting, this language of moral and emotional fatigue. on the one hand, i was so irritated by those comments of mr. sullivan's readers that could read the kind of analysis of coates, and see it as just an expression of depression. on the other hand, i don't want to lose that there is an emotional cost to the work of race, particularly for those who are on the margins of that inequality. >> absolutely. one of the things is we live in a country that is deeply and profoundly uncomfortable with black rage, right? and at the same time, we have always attributed to people of color and to women, this sort of hyperemotionalism. and it's a way to pare down the kind of radicalism and rigor of the critique, right, and to not listen. so what we have to be doing is thinking about how we can hold intention, the legitimacy of