he was extremely competitive. he was tough on referees. he lived a complicated life. i address in this book, sam gilbert, who was a booster who lavished a lot of favors on the players who were in violation of the rules. it's not to take him down by any stretch. john wooden was not a perfect man, but he was an extraordinary man. >> we're all a lot more complicated than maybe like the first layer of media coverage might indicate. the second most storied player to play under wooden was bill walton. wooden was this conservative, religious guy. who was the what was their relationship like? >> complicated.