something important to the country. debt ceiling legislation is a time that brings us together and gets the president's attention. i can't imagine it being done -- we'll have to see on what the house adds to it as a condition. >> shutdown is bad enough for america but playing with the debt ceiling is really, really bad stuff. are they really talking about doing more hostage taking around that or setting up the radio right and base and saying, we're still willing to do this stuff, and then actually they'll do the right thing? >> i think this is posturing and we've seen this from the last two debt ceiling fights we've had, one around a year ago and one around the time of the shutdown. the question is, how do you define something. a year ago something was an agreement that the senate had to pass a budget. it could be any budget, didn't have to be reconciled or cut government spending. all that had to happen was the senate passed a budget and that