medicate, the earned income tax credit program, across the line are subsidizing low-wage jobs because a large portion, maybe 40% to 50% of low wage -- we talk about working people, many of them women, are also their families participate in these safety net programs because they don't make enough money to sort of be ineligible for the program. so if you're talking about economic self-sufficiency -- so we've got to understand this in the context of pragmatism, reality, and history. and too much of this debate is dominated by theoretical and ideological conversation. >> in fact, speaking of ideological, when we come back, i want to talk about the fact as the rich are getting richer, the rich members of congress are actually debating how to take away from the poor, how much. the democrats are talking about how much should we cut in what poor children eat. right here in the richest nation