tae that's a technical problem. >> there are other tests down the road. >> of course, there are other tests down the road. in the long run, in the next few years and end of the decade, this is going to have dramatic improvement. you'll have competition in the exchangers. we're already keeping costs down and will keep them down further. you have improvements in the health care system. hospitals have to work on infections, readmissions. >> but there is a more pessimistic case, which could be what? >> the more pessimistic case would be you have insurance moving to the exchanges. the funny thing about this debate is republicans believe that over time would be great. all of their plans, including paul ryan's 2010 plan, was about breaking down the base and moving people over. one of the things frustrating about this debate is we've gone to a place in politics where we've refused to accept the fact of this reform. the individual market is a place where the recent prices are what