and that's the kind of thing that raises an awful lot of questions about the racial dynamics that may or may not have played out here. i think we -- i think we ought to be responsible about that. >> absolutely. >> i think that's right. and why we don't know if race was involved, what we do know is in places where you have racial segregation and racial tension, stand your ground laws can be the igniter fuel that sets off these kinds of incidents. >> absolutely. >> we can't necessarily connect this to the trayvon martin case. but what we can say is if there was no gun in the trayvon martin case, and if there was no gun in this case, then both parties in both incidents would still be alive. >> absolutely true. julian epstein and goldie taylor, thank you both so much. and remember, you can read goldy's column, breaking black at the grio.com. confidence and contrition from the president at the white house. we'll go there in a moment. ♪ we all have our tricks. mom swaps my snack for a piña colada yoplait. and when mom said i was going out too much, i swapped it for staying in.