level. >> finally, this question about trying to keep your business fresh. >> as a 37-year-old organization, how do you continuously innovate the organization, not only as product but as people? >> it's a great question. in essence, if you do not have a culture of innovation and of change and excitement, the company is 37 years old, how do you suddenly create that? >> i think you have to -- a favorite quote of mine along these lines is from a general. he said if you dislike change, you'll dislike ir relevance even more. unless you're looking to sunset your business or shut it down when you're gone, you have to innovate, you have to bring in new blood, new ideas, new people and look at doing things in new ways. it's just the essence of what you have to do. >> we know we have to. but how do you do that in a big old company? >> i mean, you always have the new people who come in every now and then. it's fresh dna.