>> and through the states. >> while these are positive steps in the right direction, let's be very clear. these are baby steps compared to the scale of the problem. >> here's the thing. i want to invert that around. what ends up happening is, what is so insidious about this new kind of rhetoric about futility we have seen in the american domestic political context, it's precisely your argument, right? they say, well, what are we really going to do, we're nibbling at the margins and china and india have all these coal plants. so what ends up happening, they have gone from denying the problem to saying the problem is so big we can't fix it. what i hear is why should we bother. >> the u.s. dragging its feet is compromising not only the entire planet, but is compromising u.s. economic --. interests. >> future. >> but also, what it's doing is, when i sit down with the head of the chinese climate negotiation team and talk, they are ready with india. they are ready to say, we will move our fossil fuels. they say how can we move -- >> wait a second. aren't they just -- isn't everyone just doing the same thing? this is a big game theory conundrum, right?