that's some way substantiative. that's the way the pageant chose to do it. we all know in this business, how we look matters. >> it's why i wanted to bring in your scholarship. this sense of sort of the need to somehow defend pageants, right? in part the point i'm making. on the one hand, you have this pageant that depose back to 1921, that is this large scholarship provider. on the other hand, it's pursue that part of the feminist movement began with a critique of the pageant. so is there a space for thinking about whether or not they have any value, and what that value is, not just in terms of the scholarship significance, but is there any social redeeming value in them? >> first of all, i really believe that the miss america pageant or program, as it has been called over the years, is more of a symptom of what's going on with women and society today, and even feminism, and not a cause of it. so what it does, it reflects society. and when it started, those women who competed in their bathing