families wait till the last possible minute to seek help so families in shelters, living on the streets, they've really exercised the last of their options, borrowed food and money from friends and family. the people who are being kicked out of shelters have no other options. >> we go to question of stories. the shame piece, the idea it's fundamentally shameful and as we see here fundamentally dangerous, how then do we take that part of the story, couch surfing, staying with your cousin, with your sister, finally finding yourself and your children in a homeless shelter, how do we get that to penetrate policy making? >> you know what, i'm not sure because the stereotype of who is homeless and the stereotype of who is poor in america has been so ingrained. so i spent a lot of time in poor communities around the country, and people who are very poor people who are homeless don't call themselves that. they don't realize they're poor. they won't call themselves homeless. they'll say they're still looking for a house. so even they don't always recognize it. i think that's a big hurdle.