and from the amount of obesity in this country, my -- by people were told that don't have enough to eat, it does seem like we can have a debate about this issue. >> tom, it is like one of these instances, where do you begin? everything you're saying is wrong. this is an idea that is held in conservative circles that people are sort of lazy and living off government largesse, when in reality getting qualified for food stamps is in and of itself a trial. >> right, you know, nutrition is expensive, calories are cheap. and if you look at stockman, and donny ferguson, the agreements he bought on his food stamp challenge, pasta, tomato sauce, soda, sweetened fruit juices, no high quality feeds, a recipe for obesity. and that is exactly what people with low incomes are faced with. they have their two dollars to