government as these gentlemen seem to be. i think it has been effective. if it is breaking the senate, my feeling is it is so broken, the sooner it breaks completely, the better. >> but it is a question of what is your goal here? what is the end to this? i think there are two major revolutions of taking place in the republican party roughly in the last 30 years. first one goes back to late '7 0s and the '80s. primary towns are the tool. jacob javits, clifford case, ed brooks, all of them were challenged by republican primaries. it was still a party interested in governmenterning. i think the effect of what, if you look at what mike lee is doing in the senate, what ted cruz is doing in the senate, other than basically destroying the senate, what is the objective here? >> the other thing that make mess me sympathetic -- or i'm not sympathetic to the goals. but it is so fascinating to watch john mccain do a full 360