responsibility. the fact that you a top reporter for the "new york times" doesn't know yet who's in charge, it does make people think, what kind of an operation is this where nobody knows what anybody is doing? >> it's very strange, if you were watching yesterday's testimony, at one point they said -- they said the current irs -- they said we think we know who the manager and the specialists were. then they come back a few minutes later and say, actually, we thought we knew who the person was and we asked them. and we were wrong. and i find it astonishing. you would think it would be evident in document traces, e-mail traces, who got this going. even the ig apparently couldn't figure that out, which speaks to a level of kind of ineptitude in that office to some extent. >> you know, i have to ask about lois lerner, the one who's on the skillet now for taking the fifth. she should get credit, i think. i'm not a lawyer in this case, but she should get credit for having blown the whistle on this a while back a couple years ago and told those people to stop using the shorthand in looking for tea party people.