apartment as well. i want to bring james cavanaugh back into the conversation, msnbc analyst, retired atf special agent in charge. he's also a former hostage negotiator as well. james, i want to pick up sort of where we left off last hour. do the devices and the tactics that these two deployed, do those things indicate specialized training or outside assistance? >> well, that's a great question, craig. i feel like there's more contact than just the self-radicalization by themselves and the internet. now, we don't know. we really don't have those facts. but you know i've been listening to your guests, mr. ervin and professor pape, and these are top people in the field. i have read professor pape's stuff. as a bomb investigator, there's the bomb and there's the bombers. and, you know, they have done a great job at the chicago project, i hope your viewers value the unbelievable deep information that he can provide