it says these are the numbers and these are the policies that prove those number. >> i would be happy if patty muralies has the same bottom-line numbers if she was transparent how she got there. there's so many gimmicks as a former cbo guy, it makes me cringe. i respect people like the progressive budget. if you want to spend more, i think you're in wrong, but be honest about it. >> paul ryan's budget doesn't really get to the detail of how he would make his cuts. >> and it's full of gimmickry. >> paul ryan's budget does more from a budget point of view than is necessary. he describes the policies that are in there. it's a fair defense on both sides that these are budget documents, and god forgive the budget community do what the ways and means committee -- we don't need that food fight. i get that. they've laid out three times in the house what they believe the budget to contain in terms of policies, and i think the senate