one other thing i have to say with the tea party. not just debt. tlrge people whom i disagree and opposed to the role of the government and for some people the debt is a way to make cuts in programs they never would have voted for in the first place and didn't like. you know who said that? dave stockman in his book. he said i came to washington and found all of these programs i thought were hoisted on the people by the liberals and turned out popular in our district. the notion to cut taxes to starve the beast goes back to that. an element they he want to not just reduce the yet but do it in a way that reduces government programs. that's another reason why taxes are not neutral as to how you reduce the debt. cutting programs does both reducing the debt and cutting medicare and social security. >> the great challenge, of course, is taking care of the long-term debt. we talk about this around the table all the time. you can cut discretionary but it